Mark Tokar about the improvisation, projects with electronics and styles mixing
Interviewer: First, I want to talk about the musical context, but maybe you have some preferences in other topics? Mark Tokar: What are the essential topics now? Military ones, of course. Everything boils down to this topic. In any sense. In some cultural and historical terms, or simply in some physical way. Therefore, I'm following you - you should ask [the questions]. Interviewer: I usually start a conversation with improvisers with such a seemingly banal, but interesting question - how each musician understands this context of improvisation? How would you explain improvisation to someone who doesn't know what it is? Mark Tokar: Well, improvisation is a very broad concept. There is jazz improvisation, there are other types. Before, the whole baroque music was based on improvisation. Everything was not written strictly from beginning to end, according to the notes. There were some digits chord notation and the performer had to fill it according to his and to his skill. In folk music, improvisation has probably existed since the beginning of its creation. So it's a very, very wide range of possibilities. The way we play is close to improvisational music, and improvisation goes from beginning to end. We don’t have any pre-agreed points of contact or similarity. Spontaneity from start to finish. And I think that masters who are very deep in it, who are at the top of improvisational music, who can do it - are in some sort of ‘free swimming’. This is a kind of freestyle where everything is possible. On the only condition that it is well-done work. You should follow all the rules of harmony and composition work. Timbral composition is a little different. Mastery of an instrument, ensemble playing, all of this is present. And it's all in a heap, depending on skill. It may be successful, or it may not. It's always a risk. There is always a risk that nothing will work out. Interviewer: Such a vast, huge improvisation. I used to be more in the context of these musicians who had full impro, not even jazz related. That is, it is electronics, some noisy things. That is, such things are very distant from the jazz we know. Tell me how much you are drawn to more structured things, and how much to… Mark Tokar: I am sometimes drawn to structured things. Not taking into account the last year, when I was not drawn to anything, because I was not doing it. But in the last few years before the war, I was most interested in structured things. My antipode point of view: for some reason, I practice, study and admire Ludwig Bach as the most structured model on the classical guitar. It makes me feel good from start to finish. From studying, replaying, and analyzing to form perfection. It pleases me mentally, and somehow brings me together. Soothes, heals, I don't know. I realized this once when I was playing with that trio. In 2018, we had a tour, we played ten concerts, two of them in Poland and five in Germany. All the concerts were day by day and with a very serious intensity. And I wanted to get together, and to get together for me is silence and baroque. Well, exactly Bach. So I was coming back, I had some other projects and tours there in 2018. But if closing the question with all of this - then chambering, no-dancing, Bach. As structured as possible. Interviewer: Wow. I am very interested in the context of combining tradition and innovation in music. And since I'm not a professional electronic musician, I'm interested in how some people mix folk tradition on the one hand and their own music on the other. And so it turns out that you like to play with this baroque context. Mark Tokar: I like to play around, first of all, and then, we need to know that everything in music can incorporates into everything. There's a term called postmodernism, which allows everything - any quotes, inclusions, and styles. I'm not talking so much about improvisational music as about any genre. There was a project with Andrukhovych, Gorbachevska, and Ola Mykhailyuk, where there were such peculiar collages, inclusions of everything that is possible. And in one project with Albert, and in another with the Aeneid, plus the visualization was postmodern. There were different quotes, artists, styles, and eras. And in terms of music, there was Bach and techno. And I think that it's all socialized, it's all justified. Now is the time when You can do, what You want, and if it has arms and legs, if it has meaning and some value. Interviewer: From what I know, you don't have many projects with electronics. It's also a static question - do you not really like it or have you not had the chance yet? Mark Tokar: I had the opportunity, I just didn't fixate on it. I was playing in London with an electronic musician, a guy like super electronic musician, who is very electronic. I mean, he could play for an hour one sound, and change it temral characterirstics. Interviewer: And a so-called drone? Mark Tokar: Well, I don't even know that for sure. But it was constantly changing. I mean, there's a lot of things in one sound. And this bothered me because I can't answer much about it either. But then I also had one solo concert in Lviv, in the space of the Municipal museum or, I don't know exactly what is it. It’s opposite the Stefanyk, near Mytsko Lyany Museum. The cultural center. In fact, I played one note for the whole concert, but with different rhythms, timbres, and colors. But it was enough. I also had projects where electronics were added to live instruments, with Ken, with Resonance Ensemble We had one year where we had a tour with an ensemble with Chris Kurzman from Vienna. There was an eleventh musician who was with the electronics. He recorded each of the musicians and the band as a whole. Then he would release everything through processing, with solo, and it was hard to tell, if it is You playing, or is it electronics playing. I played with Rezo Kiknadze, a saxophonist who plays with electronics. He takes both his own and your instrument, twists it through some adapters, and produces something amazing. The last CD that came out MALA PARDUBICKA (MIKOŁAJ TRZASKA / PETR VRBA / MARK TOKAR / BALAZS PANDI), was by a trumpeter who used a lot of electronics. There was a quintet with Mars Williams, with Jaimie Branch, trumpet player, she unfortunately, no longer lives. I just don't understand why you need electronics for the sake of electronics. If it's appropriate, then it's cool, if a person has something to tell with the help of electronics, then it's cool. I have nothing against it. Interviewer: I think there was a moment like that yesterday. I remember that you also made such drones on the combo. Mark Tokar: You hear, see, and listen to it all, and it's all there. Everything is used, in a specific room, with specific items. Interviewer: I was just listening to these conversational improvisations with Hryhorchyk on my way here. Mark Tokar: With whom? Interviewer: With Hryhorchyk. Well, it's an impromptu, it was recorded a few years ago. Mark Tokar: Is that Tomasz? Interviewer: Yes. And there are also a few points about the contrabass. That's how you realize that it's such a focused, monophonic instrument. Mark Tokar: You know, there are different periods, different people, and a certain approach. If a person has enough of everything: sound, range, possibilities, and they can develop in something, then it's great. At some point, I realized that without mastering harmony on the piano, I wouldn't be able to make any further steps. Well, it's the same with Baroque and Bach. Firstly, it was a challenge for me to gain some vocabulary or baggage, because there is a kind of constructed music. Secondly, returning to the double bass, it would be possible to make a kind of baroque vocabulary on it. But for some reason, I didn't want to do that. After all, the guitar is a polyphonic instrument, and everything can be played better. At the same time, you can make four-voice, absolutely without tension. Sometimes it's a hidden four-voice or three-voice. Two-voice is easy. That's why this instrument can be related much more to polyphonic pieces. Similarly, jazz guitar is something cool, something different. I've tried many times to make progress in this, but it keeps getting postponed. Jazz itself is the last interest to me now. And it is despite the fact that this is my long-term background, and I can always return to it. It's clear that I've been listening to and playing this music for many years, but I don't want to stagnate in it. I want to take on something else, and look for other intersections and points. Actually, in recent years, I don't even operate any notions of style, like I want to play only this way or that way. It's the music itself, it carries you, it takes you to something. And for a long time now I have not been enslaved to any stylization, as if I want it only this way or that way. In general, it doesn't work that way. It works in such a way that there are people who play something, and then there are those who categorize it. Like Metallica - what is it? Heavy metal or thrash metal? No one says that it's a one-determined style. It's just a band, and that’s all.
About the motivation to start playing music and the evolution over years
Interviewer: Yep, there are labels usually, because it's more attractive to "package" this music and put it on a shelf so that people know what it is. Especially now, when popular music is also beginning to be saturated with many experimental contexts, and it's not the same pop that it used to be. I think a lot of changes are happening here too. It's also hard to say what it can be attributed to. And here we smoothly move on to the issue of education. How did your evolution happen? If you can remember, how did this whole adventure begin? Mark Tokar: But you can remember. I have four musical institutions, none of which I have completed. The only one I accomplished was a Polytechnic institute. Again, I have never been an engineer, never worked. But since I had been in the engineering circle for many years, and I had passed some tests, the approach remained familiar to me. And after graduation, I also had a lot of skills, purely library ones, in acoustics, in the structure, how it all changes, and how it looks. Then I began to realize that some composers, like Vivaldi, for example, wrote music for a specific hall. There are specific musical properties, reflections, and echoes. And you know how they will sound in a particular performance, musical composition, and space. As for the musical-who is he there… Interviewer: The question about engineers is interesting. Because nowadays almost every electronic musician is also a kind of engineer. Because you have to understand, while sitting in headphones and making music, how this music will sound on speakers, and whether everything will be okay. Mark Tokar: Basically, yes. Interviewer: So it's interesting to see how it changes over the years. Mark Tokar: It's a strange time in general. You look at what people are listening to and sometimes catch a mood of despair. Because listening to music on your phone is not listening at all. It's just some kind of nonsense. You realize that people gather, put instruments in the studio, and do everything super cool and precise, they have receivers, and converters to achieve the highest quality. And for what? For someone to listen to it later on iTunes or something else. Spotify, for example, and things like that. They listen to it right from its phone and on the go, in the subway, or in the car. There are few people who cherish good, high-quality sound and who make some kind of speaker system at home or in the car. They sit and really listen. During the pandemic, there was a hole. And even now it's not clear what will happen tomorrow. Interviewer: I actually recorded an interview with Wojtek yesterday. He was also a vinyl collector, and he gathered equipment all over Poland to recreate this context. Even though, many people dramatize all these things. I mean, all these standard memes about super expensive cables sound better. There's always a middle ground, I guess. Mark Tokar: I have met such people. They have a piece of equipment worth a hundred thousand, but they listen to only two CDs. Or they may replace the cable and sit there, shivering over it. This is a completely different lap, incomprehensible to me. Some sort of audiophilia. Interviewer: Another interesting point from that interview is that when he talks about CDs, he mentions that many people don't have anything to listen to CDs on. But in Poland, I think, the situation is a little different: here, music is released on cassettes, on CDs, and on vinyl, too. Mark Tokar: On vinyl, of course. I just released a vinyl. It came out a long time ago, a year ago, but I just got it in my hands. There's vinyl, there's a single, a small. And on a disk, on a CD, there is a more complete version. Interviewer: Going back to the issue of education, I'm still curious how it all started with you. What was your motivation to start playing music in the first place? Mark Tokar: Actually I don't know where I started. As for the guitar, I started playing some rock stuff when I was about fifteen. Then I thought I should study, to get literate and stuff. And I got into a conservatory environment, where I started from scratch with all kinds of pieces… and so on. But I always wanted to improvise. I feel cramped both in classical works and in a classical environment. I'm an improviser, and I knew it. Improvisation is jazz, jazz music, it is a completely different attitude to the rhythm, to the material. It's a different kind of collaboration, a different kind of ensemble playing. Everything was parallel. I was somehow logically drawn to improvisational music.
About music of the youth and composers without education
Interviewer: What did you listen to when you were young? Usually, when I was young, I listened to some kind of rock, but how did you come to feel that you were an improviser? Did you come across jazz and eventually start listening to it more? Mark Tokar: I don't know. I don't know when it's more or less. But I think the main role is played by what you hear live. Because when I lived in Krakow, I just dissolved in music. There were so many concerts I listened to... This is a good level, it taught me a lot. And getting back to education. Nowadays, there is no such thing as having an education and that's it. A whole life educates you. You spend your whole life learning something, getting to know something. And throughout your life, you have moments you want to discover and learn something. There is always some new plane that you want to see or master. And there are always some teachers. And in some traditional ways when you contact a person and pay money to them for telling and showing something to you. Or you sit in a library and immerse yourself in some kind of scientific experience. As long as you see real people you communicate with, and play music with, you learn from them - and they from you. Interviewer: So this is part of the education? Mark Tokar: Yep. Interviewer: It's interesting. Because I talked to composers, for example, Alla Zahaykevych, and I really didn't expect to hear something like that from a professional. But she said that studying doesn't make you a composer - there must be a certain component anyway. That is, there is an equal sign between this and the fact that people can become composers without education sometimes. Mark Tokar: Yes, I guess so. As for improvisational music, you are both a performer and a composer at the same time - you compose on the fly. So there's that. Interviewer: You often talk about how education breaks down. Mark Tokar: But that's so up to you, listen. Some people get stronger, some are broken. Some people are broken by their wives, and for someone it’s fine. Everything is very individual.
Interviewer: There's an interesting point about the finalization of the material. Is what is being recorded some kind of work that is later crystallized? Or how does it happen? Mark Tokar: Depends. For example, if there's a producer who does it, it's not my business what they select from what was recorded in the studio. The second point is that most of my albums released on some labels are live. In some ways, it's more difficult because you don't have the opportunity to fix it somehow. But it's also easier because you don't have to fix it - it is what it is. And it's not your problem how it looks. Eighty minutes of the set were recorded, or forty, that's how it's going to be. That is, the attitude to the set, to the concert, is as to the finished material. It's recorded at the level it is, and if it suits both me and the publisher, then it comes out. And when there is studio work, and something has to be chosen, I haven't encountered this much.
Collaboration, participation in joint things, or solo projects?
Interviewer: And what is more interesting to you - collaboration, participation in such joint things, or solo projects? Mark Tokar: These are related to each other. If a person can't play a solo and can't hold the attention, the audience, the space, or the line with their instrument for some time, then they won't be useful in an ensemble. I'm in favor of everyone in the orchestra being a bright individual, and then everything works more interestingly. And life itself is such that you collaborate once in a while. And with the instrument you are alone, and you are fine. So there are two ways. Classical musicians who practice on their own don't have the skill of ensemble playing. It's clear that all this can be learned, but improvisers have it ingrained. Interviewer: But you have people you play all the time with. Tell me, are you interested in finding new ones to try new combinations? Mark Tokar: Life itself suggests some new things. I used to agree with everything that was offered. And over time, a kind of selection has emerged - whether it's worth it or not. If it's not, I just leave it. It used to be that I wanted to try playing with this and that. But now it's different. I have enough people in my environment, both close and not-so-close, and I can do some things with them. And I know exactly what will come of it. And, of course, there are some new people who are being added. Interviewer: As for these ensembles. I talked to Marichka Chichkova, and she mentioned the entire Lviv Improvisational Orchestra very positively, that there even was this initiative happening. Please tell me a little bit about this thing, and how clear a perspective it has. It's hard to talk about prospects now, of course... Mark Tokar: Now there is no talk of prospects at all. But back then, it was cool, clear, and fun. Because, first of all, it was on time, because it was something that needed to be done long ago. Because I was either traveling, lazy, or just busy with other things, I didn't have time to do it. And it just so happened that Marichka came along. And her friend, they took me and shook me up, like, come on, let's do this. And that was it, and we did it. Everyone was interested in it, including me, and we were preparing, and I was picking up some material to listen to and think about how to present it. And that was a year or so ago? During the most severe times of the pandemic, when everything was closed, we did it in Lyalka, and even in my house. In general, it was great for me. Interviewer: Well, this is a new role, isn't it? I understand that you're playing the role of a conductor there. Mark Tokar: So I didn't specifically try to be a conductor. But at some point, there has to be somebody who will lead at some level. And there are many orchestras where people are already so experienced that they don't need any guidance anymore. On the contrary, they do everything on their own. And everything comes out naturally, nothing needs to be shown, everything is great. Well, that's a different concept. And there are also good orchestras where there is a conductor. Interviewer: Yes, we talked with Ray Dickaty about the balance here. Sometimes he picks up on what comes from the orchestra, and sometimes he is inspired by something and he directs someone. But this can also be seen as a kind of transfer of experience. After all, it's called the Mark Tokar School. Mark Tokar: Well, that's what they called it. So there is some logic in this because I am doing it. As for the experience, I guess. Not only did I have music lessons, but we also sat and talked about various topics, issues, and situations. It's clear that the experience is transmitted. After all, I've played a lot, traveled, and I know how to do something. So it should be interesting.
About the art as a tool, the power of cultural and artistic component, russia's "europeanizing" and attempts to plan something ahead
Interviewer: I would like to move on to worldview issues. Maybe it's my naivety, but at the beginning of last year, our war, which has already escalated, and which had been going on for a long time, seemed to have reached a certain peak. And it seems that, on the one hand, we have always known about it. But, on the other hand, there was a turning point, and for me, it was very... Not even the fact of russia's attack, but the world's reaction to it. And in the context of all this, I think of art as a tool with which we have always sought answers to questions. Why, for example, the Second World War happened, how people can be the way they are. There were a lot of grants, and we tried to find and conduct some kind of dialogue. Mark Tokar: What grants do you mean? Interviewer: I mean what has been happening recently in the context of the European Union as a structure that is supposed to prevent a repeat of what happened before. And all these different layers of discussion that took place in the European context. Well, now we see that this has probably done something. Mark Tokar: It definitely did something, because russia has nothing to do with the European context. There is nothing in common. Interviewer: You see, I just realized that. Because I regularly went to Poland on scholarships. And they were very often organized to bring people from Ukraine, belarus, and russia, and to hold various historical sessions. For example, at the University of Warsaw. There were some attempts to europeanize russia. Mark Tokar: I don't know what scholarships you've been on, but I went to Gaude Polonia once, and there were about sixty of us there, and there was one person from russia. Interviewer: Yes, there were usually a lot of participants from Ukraine at Gaude. I understand that these cultural and historical contexts were created in order to bring everyone to the same table and still try to europeanize russia and democratize it in some way. Mark Tokar: The only thing that is right about this is the understanding that changes are coming from the cultural side and component. And normal states with normal governments invest in it. They do some long-term projects. It's like whiskey: it needs to be aged for a long time. And I am convinced that all changes in society and the state, on a broader or narrower scale, are initiated by the cultural and artistic component. I have known this since the revolution. I know this because Dzyga created a certain kind of environment. Very specific and clear things. So, an environment appears, those ideas mature there-again, like wine or whiskey-and then it spreads. It spreads and affects the city, the state, and the country. Interviewer: So you are still an optimist in this regard? Mark Tokar: No, I am not an optimist. For example, I am in the army now. And this is a structure that has recruited a lot of people, from everywhere. And the general level of people is not my audience. That is, I realize that I play for a very limited audience. Limited in the sense of quantity. It makes me feel bad. I mean, it's not that I want to be like Queen to sell out stadiums. Or like AC/DC. But I still have some kind of too-refined community. And for the most part, I'm less open in Ukraine than, for example, in Poland. Although in Ukraine, thanks to my collaboration with Andrukhovych and Zhadan, we traveled to cities where I would never have performed on my own. Donetsk, for example. On Donbas Airport, with Albert. Oh, not only with Albert, but we also had Aeneid. With Aeneid we were in Slaviansk, in Mariupol. In Bakhmut, too. Where else did we play? Interviewer: And there was some feedback, right? Mark Tokar: Well, there is feedback, because the music is cool anyway. It's not that... Interviewer: In fact, I was very interested to hear this context. Of course, it's pointless to plan something for a long time and make predictions. Mark Tokar: Well, that's just our current situation. But in general, it's always been the case that I was thinking ahead and planning something. And in general, with people like Klaus, we have like 20 or more projects. He once applied to the Goethe-Institut and wrote that we had about twenty projects. And when we started playing with Ken, Ken was like: I see, that You are playing together very well. We've been playing with Klaus since 2006 and with Ken since 2007. And they started playing together because of me after I put them together as a trio. It was 2016, and it was the month of Ukrainian culture in Wroclaw, and everything coincided. But we two have to finish now. Interviewer: Thank you. Mark Tokar: I would love to talk with you more, but it is very difficult to do so from the army, you know.
