Nikolayenko about the motivation, the start and what he is looking for in music
Interviewer: Hi there. It is cool that we are filming in a cinema called the Kyiv Cinema, which is unexpectedly in Krakow. Nikolayenko: We could imagine for a second that we met in Kyiv. Interviewer: [laughs] Yes. Usually, my first question for a musician is about motivation because this is the most important thing. Where do you look for motivation? Nikolayenko: Is this the first question? Well, this is a complicated one, I do not know where it comes from. It is like a kind of flow, and you can not do anything about it. It is just that if you do not do anything, you get bored. And when you spend all your time doing what you’re keen on, that's it, you can't stand to not do it anymore. It's just like that. Interviewer: How did this "adventure" begin? Where did it start? Nikolayenko: My personal musical adventure started with the radio. I remember listening to some music when I was a kid, and then around the age of fourteen I started listening to electronic music on the radio. It was a local network in Dnipro called 'Radiomix', and Topolsky and the residents of nightclubs in Dnipro played there on Fridays and Saturdays. That is the time when I was familiarised with electronic music. I didn't understand what it was, but I really liked it. And then I started listening to more, more, and more. That was around then, it must have been 1996, or something like that. Interviewer: I understand you very well, I was in a similar situation. I remember falling asleep listening to a trance music. I had the radio on all the time, and I didn't know the term ‘trance’ either. Then, by chance, it happened that there was a group of people in our neighborhood who organized trance parties in Lviv. And somehow it just rushed. And what happened next? Did you get interested in electronics and start digging deeper? Nikolayenko: I started collecting cassettes, and mixes, and then in 2001 I started collecting records. And on 2001, I started playing music as a DJ in the club whose mixes I had been listening to on the radio before. And then somewhere in the late 2000s, I got a little tired of listening to only dance and electronic music, and one of my friends recorded me something, just how it was back then: people exchanged mp3 disks. And then I found Jan Jelinek, Oval. And I had the same feeling as when I started listening to electronic music. Like, "wow, what is this, I don't understand," and I just shifted my focus in that direction. And in 2006 I had my first live show as a musician. It was in Kyiv, at the [inaudible 04:42] or Next Sound festival, I don't remember. Interviewer: So it's quite dangerous to make a shift from the safe zone of dance music into such an unknown area. Nikolayenko: Well, it just becomes boring after a while, and you realize that something that interests you more comes along. It's like that. And then you dive into it. Deeper and deeper. Perhaps when I first started listening to electronic music, I was looking for something in it that I've got now. Interviewer: And what have you come to now? Nikolayenko: Well, now I understand exactly what I'm doing. When I first started making music, I didn't really understand what I was doing and what I wanted. But now I know exactly what I want, and it's a very pleasant realising.
About software, film as a tool and tone of nostalgia in his tracks
Interviewer: You started with a computer, obviously? Nikolayenko: Yes, indeed. Interviewer: What kind of software did you use? Nikolayenko: It was Reason, it had cool samplers where you could make cool loops. You could have as many samplers as you wanted, and in each of them, you could choose a sample and make a loop. And, basically, I remember that it was good software. Interviewer: Yeah, everybody started with it. But I took a simpler path: I used Fruity Loops at first. Nikolayenko: Yes, Fruity Loops, but it was easier to make rather dance music there. I didn't know how to do something more complicated with its tools. Interviewer: I remember that I started with the first version. It looked like a transitional version of Tracker: it had these dots on it. And it actually worked like Tracker. That's why it didn't behave like later versions. There were some bugs, sometimes the sound would somehow freeze, drag on, and last forever, and it created all sorts of strange experiments, and the layering was so interesting. What was your next step away from computers? Nikolayenko: I realized somewhere along the line that I couldn't reproduce the sound I wanted on a computer, and I needed cassettes for that. I also had a VHS recorder, which is also a good tool. I needed to achieve a certain sound, and I could only do it with cassettes. I already had a regular cassette recorder, a VHS recorder, and a mini-cassette recorder. I could record each track on tape, then back into Tracker, and then I realized that I was already achieving what I wanted. And so, step by step, I realized that I didn't need a computer. I mean, I want to control the whole process manually, to manage everything with my hands. Interviewer: Was the tape just a tool that was at hand, or did you create an image of it through some of its sound features? Nikolayenko: In general, I like films that are shot on tape. They are qualitatively different from those shot on a digital camera. Nowadays, people still shoot on tapes, anyway. If earlier tape was a must, meaning that you couldn't make a movie without one, now it's just a specific tool to achieve a certain picture quality. It's the same with music for me: I use it as a tool to achieve a certain quality of sound. Interviewer: So it's about nostalgia? Nikolayenko: Maybe it's nostalgia. First, I just enjoy doing it, and second or third, it just happens to sound nostalgic. It turns out that it sounds like pieces from some, perhaps, fictitious or phantom memories. That is, it has this quality of sound. Interviewer: I have seen that you have a lot of interesting allusions to memory and some kind of archaeology. Why is that so? Nikolayenko: This is as unclear to me as the motivation. I mean, it comes from somewhere [smiles], and I don't know why. I just really like it.
About modular synthesizers and balance between studio work and live performances
Interviewer: What about modular synthesizers? What is your experience with that? Nikolayenko: Yeah, I use modular synthesizers just to create these magnifying glasses. I mean, the pure sound of the same sequences that I make - you've been to a concert and heard them live is also good, but something is missing. And when they are recorded in a specific way on tape, that's when they sound different. First of all, the [inaudible 11:30] recorder has very cool preamps - this is also a factor. And then there's the tape itself. But to be able to just take a modular synthesizer and play live... I used to do that, but now it's not what I like anymore. It's more interesting to record and more enjoyable to play live from the tape. But in the studio, yes, it's a studio instrument, and I'm not going to take it on stage. Interviewer: And is it big enough to be carried out? Nikolayenko: Well, it is, but... Heinali came with a modular synthesizer. And, in fact, my instruments are not very light either [smiles], and it's quite an ‘adventure’, to transport them. But by "studio instrument" I mean that I, as an artist, cannot go on stage with it. For me, it's a pure studio instrument for creating sequences and recording loops on tape. Because without that, the sound itself doesn't satisfy me. Interviewer: So you have a clear division between live and studio work? Is live work a continuation of studio work or can something unexpected happen to it? Nikolayenko: It's interesting. Yesterday, one of the visitors told me that it looked like a DJ set that is as if I played a DJ set with loops. Basically, it is, and I like it. I like that I have these loops, they are already selected, because when I create them, I only keep the ones that I really like. If I don't like a loop, I overwrite it until I have such a cool thing. And so they accumulate, I catalog them and then select the ones that go with each other. I can take ten, for example, and make a track out of them. That's how I made my last albums. Interviewer: So it's actually something like memory? These short snippets come to mind now, especially since the modular synthesizer is also an uncontrollable thing, you never know what's going to happen. You record once and you can't go back to it, can you? Nikolayenko: No. I can just save it and then play it live. It's exciting.
About studio work, live performances and collaboration
Interviewer: And what about the technical aspects of the tape, does it clog the material as well? How do you handle it? Because it's quite a material that can be easily damaged. Nikolayenko: No, there are high-quality tapes, and there is a special kit for creating loops with very strong tape. It’s not going to tear easily unless you want to tear it on purpose. [smiles] And so it's quite durable. And you have to keep it away from magnets, obviously. [both smile]. Interviewer: This is actually a very traditional way of working. Nikolayenko: Actually, yes. Because this is how people made music in the 1960s and 1970s. The BBC Radiophonic Workshop, for example, it was their bread and butter. Interviewer: Yes, and also the experimental studio of Polish radio, which, unfortunately, no longer exists, it was [inaudible 15:46]. Did you know about this story at some point? Nikolayenko: Yes, I knew about it. It always fascinated me, I wanted to try to repeat that technique. And now I can't stop. [smiles] Interviewer: But did you also start with the bass and cutting some separate loops, other material? Nikolayenko: No, not with other material, only with my own. You just record your own stuff. There are many sketches that you create on the synthesizer that sound like pop music. And then when you do the loop, it doesn't sound like that anymore, and you can play the loop at different speeds. A lot of what I played was not his original speed, there was a slow-down almost everywhere. Interviewer: Does the sound behave differently if you distort it digitally and on tape? There is a difference, isn't there? Nikolayenko: Indeed, there is. Interviewer: How much retro and nostalgia for the times of the 1960s or 1970s is present in your work? How much is it connected with the history, architecture, and art of that time? Nikolayenko: Like I said, it's not the main goal. It sounds so nostalgic, but it's not created to sound like that. That's why I used to really suffer a lot from this topic, I thought that the 1960s to the 1990s was the golden period of music. Now I've changed my mind because even today you can create something new that sounds interesting. There are a lot of examples in the same Unsound. I'm not going to make such statements anymore, as if I'm trying to bring back the retro aesthetic. Rather, I just do what I like. And how it is perceived is another matter. Interviewer: So there is no nostalgia and no desire to reconstruct some lost elements of time? If we are talking about the post-Soviet context... Nikolayenko: No, there is nothing connected with the Soviet context at all. Well, in my work particularly.
About himself as a publisher and undercurrents in this business
Interviewer: What about you as a publisher? Because this is in a way a selection of artifacts- looking for a music for your label. Again, what was your motivation for starting the label, and how do you select music? Nikolayenko: I remember that I created the label with the goal of just trying out what it was. It was interesting to press a record, then the desire came from somewhere, and then it went on and on. It was interesting to create a specific scene or club where you could gather artists who sounded similar. I mean, if you take the same [inaudible 20:21], you can hear very different music there. I wanted to make it smoother so that all the artists are supposed to be similar. As if it was one person releasing it but under different nicknames. And this is how I still select artists. Like, alter ego. [laughs]. Interviewer: It sounds like Gondwana Records, the label I recently came across on. They are the ones that release Portico Quartet, Honey Raney, etc. It seemed to me that they work on a similar principle. In a way, it's convenient, because you know for sure that this is an agency that you can work with and invite artists for your audience. So, in fact, your label is a kind of magnet that creates a community? Nikolayenko: Yes, you could say that. Interviewer: And does it work in this way? Nikolayenko: It seems to work, yes. There are releases, there is distribution, there are artists, basically. Everything works. Interviewer: Was it difficult to start building this? What are the undercurrents? Nikolayenko: Paypal, and the fact that it is still not available in Ukraine. You can't get money from a bandcamp. That is, the problem is both in Paypal and in the bandcamp. I don't know how to solve it. I saw that the problem is that Ukraine is on some kind of a blacklist in the United States. Along with other countries like Afghanistan. And I don't know how to get out of this blacklist, and what Ukraine has to do for that. I think it would help not only musicians and labels but also ordinary people. Without it, It's quite difficult. We had to ask our friends in the EU or in the US [to transfer money]. And now, when the label receives large sums of money, it's not about the inconvenience, but you just can't ask your friends about help. Because in that case they have to create a business account, and it involves taxes and everything else. In a way, it was a coincidence that I was in Estonia and started a company there because I can do it legally there and pay taxes. I would like it to be possible in Ukraine. Interviewer: What about mailing lists, for example? Nikolayenko: There are no problems with mailing. The post is working in Ukraine now, too. Interviewer: Do you track the majority of the audience, how is it distributed? I mean, how many people are from Ukraine, and how many are abroad? What is the approximate geography? Nikolayenko: Well, I know that the United States is in first place, the United Kingdom is in second place, and somewhere in between are the EU, Japan, and Ukraine.
About the ukranian musical geography, new names in ukrainian music and the course of electronical music itself
Interviewer: Again, in terms of geography, how would you map the musical geography of Ukraine? I mean, where, as you know, which musicians, which styles, how everything is devided. Nikolayenko: [smiles] That's an interesting question. Well, Dnipro is techno, and Kyiv is techno. Odesa is more of a dub city, a dub kraut. Lviv... I've never performed in Lviv, by the way - no one invited me. In Ternopil, I performed a lot: it's more of a gothic new wave vibe. I can only speak for the cities where I have been and am familiar with the people and the scene. Interviewer: But like this, for example, as a publisher, when you get things sent to you, do you keep track of what and where they come from? Even things that are not going to be published. Nikolayenko: No, no. I don't keep track. I can, in fact, open a demo at a SoundCloud, although I usually say that demos are not accepted. I do, and it can be something unusual. And I'm not interested in where it comes from, if it's not from russia, of course. [laughs]. Interviewer: About Ternopil. Yaroslav and I were just talking about his label: he also told us about the nuances. But he didn't pull us into the context of popular music, so-called pop music, and all that. What can you say about the popularization of experimental electronic music? Despite, for example, the Unsound festival, there are many different examples that are not niche, so that they are popular in a certain sense. And maybe somewhere this line between the underground and fifteen people at a concert is already blurring and moving into the context of popular music, pop. How much is the image of electronic music changing today, from your point of view? Nikolayenko: Well, it's hard to say, because I'm in a certain bubble and I don't really intersect with other bubbles. I just see something in parallel. I follow different labels on Instagram, just to see how they build communication, for example. I mean, I see how it all happens, but I'm not really immersed in it, so it's hard for me to say. I have so many friends who make music that I'm interested in that I just don't have the desire or energy to be interested in how electronic music becomes pop or so[smiles]. I see that a lot of musicians, both young and new who are not trying to be in a trend. They have a certain musical vision that fits the label. That's why I don't see a problem with it, there is a lot of interesting material. Interviewer: Maybe it's a coincidence, but I'm facing this phenomenon now... I recently did a SoundCloud research. I sat down one weekend when I started preparing for my program to get out of the bubble of what I already knew about music. And I found about a thousand and a half names from Ukraine, most of which I didn't know before, definitely. I realize that there are actually even more because this is just a SoundCloud. And the nuance is that very often I have come across young musicians who label their compositions as pop. I talked about this with Katya Grivol. Well, the fact that she does academic work is one side. And the other one is what happened at a festival organized in Warsaw, Ephemera, where she performed with her vocal project. And she said about it: "Well, this is pop". Of course, she says this as a joke, but, for example, ten years ago, it seems to me that no musician who is connected to electronics could have said that they were making pop so easily. Nikolayenko: Well, it would have been strange then. [smiles] And now it's not. Interviewer: Yeah, that's the kind of shifting that happens. Again, when you listen to what she does, it doesn't sound like pop. Yarko and I talked about this: not a lot of people go to her concerts. But, on the other hand, Alyona Alyona performs at Unsound, too, and for us she is clearly understandable in the context of popular culture. Is this the blurring of the bubble's boundaries? Nikolayenko: Well, I don't think they are. Mine doesn't, at least. [laughs] I am isolated. Maybe something will happen later, but not yet. Interviewer: But you say that you have friends whose you are interested in listening to. Who exactly are they? Who do you associate with this bubble of yours? Nikolayenko: Well, it's the labels, and there are quite a few of them, but now I can't list them all... And I don't think it's worth singling anyone out either. There are just a lot of labels that try to make music that is out of time. That is, it's not trendy, not just "for today" and with an ‘expiration date’, but it's interesting to listen to and it disorients you...[31:51] in terms of time. Interviewer: But in Ukraine, can you name a few names? Just to make it clear. Nikolayenko: Well, for example, recently [inaudible 32:12] I published a collection called ‘Volia’, and there are a lot of Ukrainian musicians in it. The same Igor Okuniev, a wonderful drone, completely out of time???? [32:27] Or Radiant Futur, of course, he has electro, but he also has some ambient works that sound like new age and could have been made in 1991, for example. Well, it sounds like that. Briazone - it's also unclear to what time this music can be attributed, and you can't say that it's just modern music, because it could have been made in the 1980s. Interviewer: What kind of music do you think is trendy now? How can you distinguish between, for example, trendy and non-trendy ambient? Nikolayenko: No, [smiles] I probably won't be able to do that anymore. Although, no, in principle, I can. However, I don't want to talk about uninteresting things. [smiles].
About core of the albums, Estonian experimental and electronic community and development of ukranian music both in Ukraine and worldwide
Interviewer: When do you realize that your personal music has formed into a release? How does it happen? What is this line or turning point? Do you create a release with the idea of a release in mind or does it just accumulate? Nikolayenko: No, I can make one or two tracks, and then create a group of other tracks around them, just to make it an album. That is, the concept comes with one or two tracks. Interviewer: What is the core of an album? Nikolayenko: The idea, the concept. You have an idea of the sound, and the concept of the album, and then you just create a group of other tracks and materials to make an album out of it. It's interesting for me to work like this when I have two tracks and I need to record eight more in the same spirit, for example. And I just do it because it's interesting. You make them a little bit different, in different moods, but they are still similar. So, it's an interesting activity. Interviewer: But this idea primarily has a sound nature? I mean, not some kind of visual or abstract one. Nikolayenko: Yes, but it can be both sound and with a certain vision of the cover. Interviewer: And what can you say about the community in Estonia and the community in Ukraine if you compare them? Is there an experimental and electronic community there? Nikolayenko: Yes, there is, and it's a very friendly community. Basically, just like in Ukraine. Maybe in Ukraine, it's not as friendly, but I always look to Estonia as an example, because people support each other a lot. I mean, 'support your local artists' is a credo in Estonia. Interviewer: So this is something that applies to your music bubble? Nikolayenko: Yeah. Interviewer: How many people are there at your concerts? Nikolayenko: Well, it depends. There's a festival [inaudible 36:33], two festivals in the summer, and they gather a lot of people, which is very big for Estonia, it's a small country. So yes, a lot, basically. Interviewer: And what about any regular concert activity? I mean, not just festivals, because they usually bring people together... What is the regularity of events? Nikolayenko: There are a lot of parties. But concerts are very rare. Interviewer: You mean, more dance events? Nikolayenko: Yes, there are a lot of clubs, just parties. Interviewer: And if we're talking about the experimental or ambient community, how does this support happen? Is it through buying music? Nikolayenko: There are record stores where the community does buy experimental and electronic music. Especially Estonian music. For example, I'm currently releasing an Estonian musician, Robert Nikolayev, and his releases are selling very well. That is, people support their own musicians in this way. And he, by the way, organizes parties of experimental music [inaudible 38:03] with regularity about once every three months. And he selects and invites very specific musicians that not everyone can listen to. [smiles] Interviewer: Because I know the example of Warsaw, but ten years ago, now everything has changed a bit. Sasha talked about this, how she developed in Warsaw, and how it started. And so she was caught up in that wave of development of the community in Warsaw. That is, at least five clubs where there could be sixty concerts regularly, within a month. And there was this regularity of events. People didn't go there alone, they gave out cassettes, and anything else they could, and exchanged them. Then there was a point where discussions started that maybe it doesn't make sense, because it all exists in a vacuum of these hundred copies, everyone buys from each other, and goes to the shows. And then came the covid, then a lot of different changes, and political shifts, they all went away, and now I see that this is no longer the case. But Poland has this tradition and practice of self-publishing: they had underground one, and somehow it turned into publishing cassettes. But you have to talk to Darek Petruszewski about this, he knows a lot about it. It seems to me that in Ukraine there was such a practice as well, but self-publishing was a little different. It was either a political work, as in Poland, or it was some serious books. And, for example, we did not have magazines or any kind of art stuff. For some reason, there was not a lot of self-publishing in this regard. Does Estonia also have some kind of tradition like this? Where do you think this development of the medium and the supporting is coming from? Nikolayenko: Well, I haven't noticed this. I know that there are a lot of labels in Estonia that... Well, first of all, Estonia has its own Record Plant, which produces pieces of vinyl and cassettes. And the locals use it, there are always queues there. They release a lot of stuff all the time, and almost everything is local. I mean, maybe it can be called self-publishing because I can be called that, but it works like this. Artists usually release their material on labels, not on their own. There are quite a few different formats of labels out there. That's why, again, music buying in Estonia is very good. There are record labels, and there is a culture of consuming music on media. Interviewer: So it's not so much local patriotism as it is love for the physical medium? Nikolayenko: I think it is patriotism in some way. Record labels, for example, have separate baskets with Estonian music. I mean, it's a popular trend. Interviewer: Do you think this is possible here, sooner or later? Nikolayenko: I think it is possible. Well, we are a little different in terms of culture. We have a kind of flip side to the fact that in Estonia people support each other, while here they will rather push each other. So it's hard to say. Interviewer: Yarko and I also talked about this topic. From his point of view, Ukrainian music has more prospects in Ukraine than in the world. It seems that no one needs us there, because they have their own musicians, and the prospect is to develop within. Nikolayenko: Well, that makes sense, because it has to develop internally, but there is interest in Ukrainian music in the States and in Britain. Music is not so much divided by geography, but rather by sound. In Britain, it would be strange if people bought only British music, more than other one. Rather, they build collections according to their preferences. It's cool if it's from some exotic country, but that's not the main criterion. Interviewer: It seems to me that Britain also has this kind of patriotism. Nikolayenko: It does, doesn't it? I don't know. [smiles]. Interviewer: I talked to at least one composer, we met here in Krakow. He writes contemporary academic music and he says that Freddie Mercury and Elton John are definitely national heroes. And there are definitely things that happen when you go to a performance of a musician and… Nikolayenko: Yes, but it's pop. And I mean some kind of underground. Because in the underground, it's not so important that it's produced in your country.
About the attitude to musical education, collecting, worst and best mediums and plans for future
Interviewer: That's interesting, but it's an open question, it hasn't been answered yet. Let's jump back to your music a little bit. What about your studies? What was the educational process like and did you have one? Did you get any kind of musical education? Nikolayenko: No. I didn't have any of one. I only have a degree in graphic design. Interviewer: And, in fact, you didn't need it? Nikolayenko: In fact, no. When I want to tune a note, there is an app, there is a tuner. And that's it. [smiles] Interviewer: What is your attitude to musical education in general? Nikolayenko: Well, maybe it's a bit of a perversion, but I'm interested in the music of non-professionals, amateur music. I also like professional music. But I just have a craving for punk or something like that. Interviewer: What about collecting? You are the person who publishes. Continuing the topic of these record players in Estonia, do you collect music yourself? Nikolayenko: Yes, I do. I exchange a lot of records and cassettes with my colleagues. I'm happy when I can exchange rather than buy. But it's also important to buy, to support buisiness. So, yes, I collect, and I also collect old music, in record players or on Discogs. I don't collect CDs, but I have a lot cassettes and vinyl. Interviewer: And no disks, because...? Nikolayenko: I don't know. Now they say that there will be a revival, and I'm not ready for it. [I don't want to make CDs. A couple of times, some artists said that they wanted to release it on CD, but I never had any plans to do that. Interviewer: Do you have any distinction between the worst and the best mediums? Nikolayenko: I don't know why, but I don't like CDs. I'll try to study this topic. Basically, it's a normal format [laughs], but it's not interesting to collect it for some reason. Vinyls are very convenient, they are somehow compact. As for cassettes, I don't collect them that much, but I collect specific ones, so they will never take up much space. And CDs will take up a lot of space, more than vinyl, in width for sure. Interviewer: Yeah, I have a couple hundred CDs at home. And I have something to compare it to, because vinyl is about the same. You don't take part in this conflict of mediums? I mean, for example, that playing from vinyl is more correct than from a flash drive or other digital media. Nikolayenko: No, I think it depends on how a person likes it. I mean, even from film. I've been taking a cassette player to the radio lately, when I play in Estonia, I play something from cassettes, something from a flash drive, something from vinyl. Interviewer: What are your plans for the future? What will be interesting for you musically? Nikolayenko: I'm looking for it now, because we have a bit of a break. It's not very comfortable for the guys in Ukraine, a lot of artists have left, those who had interesting archives. That's why the work has stopped now. We have a lot of plans for [inaudible 50:46], a lot of interesting material is coming out. So I'll release more cassettes when the release really needs a vinyl version, and then I'll make vinyl after the fact. It takes a long time to make it now, about a year already. And it doesn't make sense, because it's better to release something - a cassette, for example - and if there's a demand for vinyl later, you can wait for it. This is the new strategy. Interviewer: Smart, smart. [smiling] Great. Thank you. Nikolayenko: Thank you, too.
